12:13 p.m.
Containers are a userspace concept. The kernel knows nothing of them.
The Linux audit system needs a way to be able to track the container
provenance of events and actions. Audit needs the kernel's help to do
this.
Since the concept of a container is entirely a userspace concept, a
trigger signal from the userspace container orchestration system
initiates this. This will define a point in time and a set of resources
associated with a particular container with an audit container ID.
The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already exists)
write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
process that will become the first process in a new container.
This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
container ID.
A bind mount of nsfs may be necessary in the container orchestrator's
mntNS.
Require a new CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN to be able to write to the pseudo
filesystem to have this action permitted. At that time, record the
child container's user-supplied 64-bit container identifier along with
the child container's first process (which may become the container's
"init" process) process ID (referenced from the initial PID namespace),
all namespace IDs (in the form of a nsfs device number and inode number
tuple) in a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER with a qualifying
op=$action field.
Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER_INFO for each valid
container ID present on an auditable action or event.
Forked and cloned processes inherit their parent's container ID,
referenced in the process' audit_context struct.
Log the creation of every namespace, inheriting/adding its spawning
process' containerID(s), if applicable. Include the spawning and
spawned namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
[AUDIT_NS_CREATE, AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [clone(2), unshare(2), setns(2)]
Note: At this point it appears only network namespaces may need to track
container IDs apart from processes since incoming packets may cause an
auditable event before being associated with a process.
Log the destruction of every namespace when it is no longer used by any
process, include the namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
[AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [process exit, unshare(2), setns(2)]
Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_NS_CHANGE listing (opt: op=$action)
the parent and child namespace IDs for any changes to a process'
namespaces. [setns(2)]
Note: It may be possible to combine AUDIT_NS_* record formats and
distinguish them with an op=$action field depending on the fields
required for each message type.
A process can be moved from one container to another by using the
container assignment method outlined above a second time.
When a container ceases to exist because the last process in that
container has exited and hence the last namespace has been destroyed and
its refcount dropping to zero, log the fact.
(This latter is likely needed for certification accountability.) A
container object may need a list of processes and/or namespaces.
A namespace cannot directly migrate from one container to another but
could be assigned to a newly spawned container. A namespace can be
moved from one container to another indirectly by having that namespace
used in a second process in another container and then ending all the
processes in the first container.
Feedback please.
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
2:33 p.m.
On 09/13/2017 12:13 PM, Richard Guy Briggs wrote:
Containers are a userspace concept. The kernel knows nothing of
them.
I am looking at this RFC from a userspace perspective, particularly from
the loader's point of view and the unshare syscall and the semantics that
arise from the use of it.
At a high level what you are doing is providing a way to group, without
hierarchy, processes and namespaces. The processes can move between
container's if they have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN and can open and write to
a special proc file.
* With unshare a thread may dissociate part of its execution context and
therefore see a distinct mount namespace. When you say "process" in this
particular RFC do you exclude the fact that a thread might be in a
distinct container from the rest of the threads in the process?
The Linux audit system needs a way to be able to track the container
provenance of events and actions. Audit needs the kernel's help to do
this.
* Why does the Linux audit system need to tracker container provenance?
- How does it help to provide better audit messages?
- Is it be enough to list the namespace that a process occupies?
* Why does it need the kernel's help?
- Is there a race condition that is only fixable with kernel support?
- Or is it easier with kernel help but not required?
Providing background on these questions would help clarify the
design requirements.
Since the concept of a container is entirely a userspace concept, a
trigger signal from the userspace container orchestration system
initiates this. This will define a point in time and a set of resources
associated with a particular container with an audit container ID.
Please don't use the word 'signal', I suggest 'register' since you
are
writing to a filesystem.
The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already
exists)
write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
process that will become the first process in a new container.
This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
container ID.
A bind mount of nsfs may be necessary in the container orchestrator's
mntNS.
Require a new CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN to be able to write to the pseudo
filesystem to have this action permitted. At that time, record the
child container's user-supplied 64-bit container identifier along with
What is a "child container?" Containers don't have any hierarchy.
I assume that if you don't have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN, that nothing prevents
your continued operation as we have today?
the child container's first process (which may become the
container's
"init" process) process ID (referenced from the initial PID namespace),
all namespace IDs (in the form of a nsfs device number and inode number
tuple) in a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER with a qualifying
op=$action field.
What kind of requirement is there on the first tid/pid registering
the container ID? What if the 8th tid/pid does the registration?
Would that mean that the first process of the container did not
register? It seems like you are suggesting that the registration
by the 8th tid/pid causes a cascading registration progress,
registering all tid/pids in the same grouping? Is that true?
Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER_INFO for each valid
container ID present on an auditable action or event.
Forked and cloned processes inherit their parent's container ID,
referenced in the process' audit_context struct.
So a cloned process with CLONE_NEWNS has the came container ID
as the parent process that called clone, at least until the clone
has time to change to a new container ID?
Do you forsee any case where someone might need a semantic that is
slightly different? For example wanting to set the container ID on
clone?
Log the creation of every namespace, inheriting/adding its spawning
process' containerID(s), if applicable. Include the spawning and
spawned namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
[AUDIT_NS_CREATE, AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [clone(2), unshare(2), setns(2)]
Note: At this point it appears only network namespaces may need to track
container IDs apart from processes since incoming packets may cause an
auditable event before being associated with a process.
OK.
Log the destruction of every namespace when it is no longer used by
any
process, include the namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
[AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [process exit, unshare(2), setns(2)]
Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_NS_CHANGE listing (opt: op=$action)
the parent and child namespace IDs for any changes to a process'
namespaces. [setns(2)]
Note: It may be possible to combine AUDIT_NS_* record formats and
distinguish them with an op=$action field depending on the fields
required for each message type.
A process can be moved from one container to another by using the
container assignment method outlined above a second time.
OK.
When a container ceases to exist because the last process in that
container has exited and hence the last namespace has been destroyed and
its refcount dropping to zero, log the fact.
(This latter is likely needed for certification accountability.) A
container object may need a list of processes and/or namespaces.
OK.
A namespace cannot directly migrate from one container to another
but
could be assigned to a newly spawned container. A namespace can be
moved from one container to another indirectly by having that namespace
used in a second process in another container and then ending all the
processes in the first container.
OK.
Feedback please.
--
Cheers,
Carlos.
12:30 a.m.
On 2017-09-13 14:33, Carlos O'Donell wrote:
On 09/13/2017 12:13 PM, Richard Guy Briggs wrote:
> Containers are a userspace concept. The kernel knows nothing of them.
I am looking at this RFC from a userspace perspective, particularly from
the loader's point of view and the unshare syscall and the semantics that
arise from the use of it.
At a high level what you are doing is providing a way to group, without
hierarchy, processes and namespaces. The processes can move between
container's if they have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN and can open and write to
a special proc file.
* With unshare a thread may dissociate part of its execution context and
therefore see a distinct mount namespace. When you say "process" in this
particular RFC do you exclude the fact that a thread might be in a
distinct container from the rest of the threads in the process?
> The Linux audit system needs a way to be able to track the container
> provenance of events and actions. Audit needs the kernel's help to do
> this.
* Why does the Linux audit system need to tracker container provenance?
- ability to filter unwanted, irrelevant or unimportant messages before
they fill queue so important messages don't get lost. This is a
certification requirement.
- ability to make security claims about containers, require tracking of
actions within those containers to ensure compliance with established
security policies.
- ability to route messages from events to relevant audit daemon
instance or host audit daemon instance or both, as required or
determined by user-initiated rules
- How does it help to provide better audit messages?
- Is it be enough to list the namespace that a process occupies?
We started with that approach back more than 4 years ago and found it
helped, but didn't go far enough in terms of quick and inexpensive
record filtering and left some doubt about provenance of events in the
case of non-user context events (incoming network packets).
* Why does it need the kernel's help?
- Is there a race condition that is only fixable with kernel support?
This was a concern, but relatively minor compared with the other benefits.
- Or is it easier with kernel help but not required?
It is much easier and much less expensive.
Providing background on these questions would help clarify the
design requirements.
Here are some references that should help provide some background:
https://github.com/linux-audit/audit-kernel/issues/32
RFE: add namespace IDs to audit records
https://github.com/linux-audit/audit-documentation/wiki/SPEC-Virtualizati...
SPEC Virtualization Manager Guest Lifecycle Events
https://lwn.net/Articles/699819/
Audit, namespaces, and containers
https://lwn.net/Articles/723561/
Containers as kernel objects
(my reply, with references: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/14/15 )
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1045666
audit: add namespace IDs to log records
> Since the concept of a container is entirely a userspace
concept, a
> trigger signal from the userspace container orchestration system
> initiates this. This will define a point in time and a set of resources
> associated with a particular container with an audit container ID.
Please don't use the word 'signal', I suggest 'register' since you
are
writing to a filesystem.
Ok, that's a very reasonable request. 'signal' has a previous meaning.
> The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already
exists)
> write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
> process that will become the first process in a new container.
> This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
> container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
> verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
> container ID.
> A bind mount of nsfs may be necessary in the container orchestrator's
> mntNS.
>
> Require a new CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN to be able to write to the pseudo
> filesystem to have this action permitted. At that time, record the
> child container's user-supplied 64-bit container identifier along with
What is a "child container?" Containers don't have any hierarchy.
Maybe some don't, but that's not likely to last long given the
abstraction and nesting of orchestration tools. This must be nestable.
I assume that if you don't have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN, that nothing
prevents
your continued operation as we have today?
Correct. It won't prevent processes that otherwise have permissions
today from creating all the namespaces it wishes.
> the child container's first process (which may become the
container's
> "init" process) process ID (referenced from the initial PID namespace),
> all namespace IDs (in the form of a nsfs device number and inode number
> tuple) in a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER with a qualifying
> op=$action field.
What kind of requirement is there on the first tid/pid registering
the container ID? What if the 8th tid/pid does the registration?
Would that mean that the first process of the container did not
register? It seems like you are suggesting that the registration
by the 8th tid/pid causes a cascading registration progress,
registering all tid/pids in the same grouping? Is that true?
Ah, good question, I forgot to address that fact. The intent is that
either threaded processes after initiating threading will not have
permission to execute this, or all the processes in the thread group
will be forced into the same container. I don't have a strong opinion
on whether or not it must be the lead thread process that must be the
one to receive that registration, but I suspect that would be wise.
> Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER_INFO for each
valid
> container ID present on an auditable action or event.
>
> Forked and cloned processes inherit their parent's container ID,
> referenced in the process' audit_context struct.
So a cloned process with CLONE_NEWNS has the came container ID
as the parent process that called clone, at least until the clone
has time to change to a new container ID?
Yes.
Do you forsee any case where someone might need a semantic that is
slightly different? For example wanting to set the container ID on
clone?
I could envision that situation and I think that might be workable but
for the synchronicity of having one initiated by a specific syscall and
the other initiated by a /proc write.
> Log the creation of every namespace, inheriting/adding its
spawning
> process' containerID(s), if applicable. Include the spawning and
> spawned namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
> [AUDIT_NS_CREATE, AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [clone(2), unshare(2), setns(2)]
> Note: At this point it appears only network namespaces may need to track
> container IDs apart from processes since incoming packets may cause an
> auditable event before being associated with a process.
OK.
> Log the destruction of every namespace when it is no longer used by any
> process, include the namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
> [AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [process exit, unshare(2), setns(2)]
>
> Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_NS_CHANGE listing (opt: op=$action)
> the parent and child namespace IDs for any changes to a process'
> namespaces. [setns(2)]
> Note: It may be possible to combine AUDIT_NS_* record formats and
> distinguish them with an op=$action field depending on the fields
> required for each message type.
>
> A process can be moved from one container to another by using the
> container assignment method outlined above a second time.
OK.
> When a container ceases to exist because the last process in that
> container has exited and hence the last namespace has been destroyed and
> its refcount dropping to zero, log the fact.
> (This latter is likely needed for certification accountability.) A
> container object may need a list of processes and/or namespaces.
OK.
> A namespace cannot directly migrate from one container to another but
> could be assigned to a newly spawned container. A namespace can be
> moved from one container to another indirectly by having that namespace
> used in a second process in another container and then ending all the
> processes in the first container.
OK.
> Feedback please.
Thank you sir!
Carlos.
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
5:19 a.m.
On 2017-09-14 01:30, Richard Guy Briggs wrote:
On 2017-09-13 14:33, Carlos O'Donell wrote:
> On 09/13/2017 12:13 PM, Richard Guy Briggs wrote:
> > Containers are a userspace concept. The kernel knows nothing of them.
>
> I am looking at this RFC from a userspace perspective, particularly from
> the loader's point of view and the unshare syscall and the semantics that
> arise from the use of it.
>
> At a high level what you are doing is providing a way to group, without
> hierarchy, processes and namespaces. The processes can move between
> container's if they have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN and can open and write to
> a special proc file.
I should clarify: It wasn't intended that a process can see or modify
its own or a peer's special proc container file to be able to set it or
discover its value. This was only meant for its orchestrator or
delegated agents to do. This can't be left only to CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN.
This may require a container to have its own mount namespace if the
trigger mechanism is a proc file write. Other methods (additional
namespaces?) may be needed to restrict it for other trigger methods
(syscall?).
> * With unshare a thread may dissociate part of its execution
context and
> therefore see a distinct mount namespace. When you say "process" in
this
> particular RFC do you exclude the fact that a thread might be in a
> distinct container from the rest of the threads in the process?
>
> > The Linux audit system needs a way to be able to track the container
> > provenance of events and actions. Audit needs the kernel's help to do
> > this.
>
> * Why does the Linux audit system need to tracker container provenance?
- ability to filter unwanted, irrelevant or unimportant messages before
they fill queue so important messages don't get lost. This is a
certification requirement.
- ability to make security claims about containers, require tracking of
actions within those containers to ensure compliance with established
security policies.
- ability to route messages from events to relevant audit daemon
instance or host audit daemon instance or both, as required or
determined by user-initiated rules
> - How does it help to provide better audit messages?
>
> - Is it be enough to list the namespace that a process occupies?
We started with that approach back more than 4 years ago and found it
helped, but didn't go far enough in terms of quick and inexpensive
record filtering and left some doubt about provenance of events in the
case of non-user context events (incoming network packets).
> * Why does it need the kernel's help?
>
> - Is there a race condition that is only fixable with kernel support?
This was a concern, but relatively minor compared with the other benefits.
> - Or is it easier with kernel help but not required?
It is much easier and much less expensive.
> Providing background on these questions would help clarify the
> design requirements.
Here are some references that should help provide some background:
https://github.com/linux-audit/audit-kernel/issues/32
RFE: add namespace IDs to audit records
https://github.com/linux-audit/audit-documentation/wiki/SPEC-Virtualizati...
SPEC Virtualization Manager Guest Lifecycle Events
https://lwn.net/Articles/699819/
Audit, namespaces, and containers
https://lwn.net/Articles/723561/
Containers as kernel objects
(my reply, with references: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/8/14/15 )
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1045666
audit: add namespace IDs to log records
> > Since the concept of a container is entirely a userspace concept, a
> > trigger signal from the userspace container orchestration system
> > initiates this. This will define a point in time and a set of resources
> > associated with a particular container with an audit container ID.
>
> Please don't use the word 'signal', I suggest 'register' since
you are
> writing to a filesystem.
Ok, that's a very reasonable request. 'signal' has a previous meaning.
> > The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already exists)
> > write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
> > process that will become the first process in a new container.
> > This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
> > container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
> > verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
> > container ID.
> > A bind mount of nsfs may be necessary in the container orchestrator's
> > mntNS.
> >
> > Require a new CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN to be able to write to the pseudo
> > filesystem to have this action permitted. At that time, record the
> > child container's user-supplied 64-bit container identifier along with
>
> What is a "child container?" Containers don't have any hierarchy.
Maybe some don't, but that's not likely to last long given the
abstraction and nesting of orchestration tools. This must be nestable.
This is why we can't rely only on CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN to restrict the
ability for self-modification or self-discovery.
> I assume that if you don't have CAP_CONTAINER_ADMIN, that
nothing prevents
> your continued operation as we have today?
Correct. It won't prevent processes that otherwise have permissions
today from creating all the namespaces it wishes.
> > the child container's first process (which may become the container's
> > "init" process) process ID (referenced from the initial PID
namespace),
> > all namespace IDs (in the form of a nsfs device number and inode number
> > tuple) in a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER with a qualifying
> > op=$action field.
>
> What kind of requirement is there on the first tid/pid registering
> the container ID? What if the 8th tid/pid does the registration?
> Would that mean that the first process of the container did not
> register? It seems like you are suggesting that the registration
> by the 8th tid/pid causes a cascading registration progress,
> registering all tid/pids in the same grouping? Is that true?
Ah, good question, I forgot to address that fact. The intent is that
either threaded processes after initiating threading will not have
permission to execute this, or all the processes in the thread group
will be forced into the same container. I don't have a strong opinion
on whether or not it must be the lead thread process that must be the
one to receive that registration, but I suspect that would be wise.
> > Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_CONTAINER_INFO for each valid
> > container ID present on an auditable action or event.
> >
> > Forked and cloned processes inherit their parent's container ID,
> > referenced in the process' audit_context struct.
>
> So a cloned process with CLONE_NEWNS has the came container ID
> as the parent process that called clone, at least until the clone
> has time to change to a new container ID?
Yes.
And as pointed to above, it isn't the process itself that is able to
change to a new container, but its orchestrator to move/assign it.
> Do you forsee any case where someone might need a semantic that
is
> slightly different? For example wanting to set the container ID on
> clone?
I could envision that situation and I think that might be workable but
for the synchronicity of having one initiated by a specific syscall and
the other initiated by a /proc write.
The ability to clone while providing a containerID would work really
well, but I'm hesitant to extend or duplicate the clone call. This
actually sounds like a potentially sane way of approaching it.
> > Log the creation of every namespace, inheriting/adding its
spawning
> > process' containerID(s), if applicable. Include the spawning and
> > spawned namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
> > [AUDIT_NS_CREATE, AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [clone(2), unshare(2), setns(2)]
> > Note: At this point it appears only network namespaces may need to track
> > container IDs apart from processes since incoming packets may cause an
> > auditable event before being associated with a process.
>
> OK.
>
> > Log the destruction of every namespace when it is no longer used by any
> > process, include the namespace IDs (device and inode number tuples).
> > [AUDIT_NS_DESTROY] [process exit, unshare(2), setns(2)]
> >
> > Issue a new auxilliary record AUDIT_NS_CHANGE listing (opt: op=$action)
> > the parent and child namespace IDs for any changes to a process'
> > namespaces. [setns(2)]
> > Note: It may be possible to combine AUDIT_NS_* record formats and
> > distinguish them with an op=$action field depending on the fields
> > required for each message type.
> >
> > A process can be moved from one container to another by using the
> > container assignment method outlined above a second time.
>
> OK.
>
> > When a container ceases to exist because the last process in that
> > container has exited and hence the last namespace has been destroyed and
> > its refcount dropping to zero, log the fact.
> > (This latter is likely needed for certification accountability.) A
> > container object may need a list of processes and/or namespaces.
>
> OK.
>
> > A namespace cannot directly migrate from one container to another but
> > could be assigned to a newly spawned container. A namespace can be
> > moved from one container to another indirectly by having that namespace
> > used in a second process in another container and then ending all the
> > processes in the first container.
>
> OK.
>
> > Feedback please.
Thank you sir!
> Carlos.
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
--
Linux-audit mailing list
Linux-audit(a)redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-audit
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
12:33 p.m.
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already
exists)
write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
process that will become the first process in a new container.
This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
container ID.
Why a u64?
Why a proc filesystem write and not a magic audit message?
I don't like the fact that the proc filesystem entry is likely going to
be readable and abusable by non-audit contexts?
Why the ability to change the containerid? What is the use case you are
thinking of there?
Eric
1:07 p.m.
On 2017-09-14 12:33, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
> The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already exists)
> write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
> process that will become the first process in a new container.
> This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
> container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
> verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
> container ID.
Why a u64?
u32 will roll too quickly. UUID is large enough that it adds
significantly to audit record bandwidth. I'd prefer u64, but can look
at the difference of accommodating a UUID...
Why a proc filesystem write and not a magic audit message?
A magic audit message requires CAP_AUDIT_WRITE, which we'd like to use
sparingly. Given that orchestrators will already require it to send
the mandatory AUDIT_VIRT_*, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden.
I was originally leaning towards an audit message trigger or a syscall.
I don't like the fact that the proc filesystem entry is likely
going to
be readable and abusable by non-audit contexts?
This proposal wasn't going to start with that link being readable, but
its filesystem structure and link names would be, perhaps giving away
too much already.
I think we will need to find a way for the orchestrator or one of its
authorized agents to read this information while blocking reads from
unauthorized agents, otherwise this would be of very limited use.
Why the ability to change the containerid? What is the use case you
are
thinking of there?
This was covered in the end of the conversation with Paul Moore (that
maybe you got tired reading?) I'd originally proposed having it write
once, but Paul figured there was no good reason to restrict it and leave
that decision up to the orchestrator. The use case would be adding
other processes to a container, but it could be argued all additional
processes should be spawned by the first process in a container.
Eric
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
9:45 p.m.
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
On 2017-09-14 12:33, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
> Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
>
> > The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already exists)
> > write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
> > process that will become the first process in a new container.
> > This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
> > container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
> > verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
> > container ID.
>
> Why a u64?
u32 will roll too quickly. UUID is large enough that it adds
significantly to audit record bandwidth. I'd prefer u64, but can look
at the difference of accommodating a UUID...
I was imagining a string might be better. As for the purposes of audit
it is just a byte string you regurgitate.
> Why a proc filesystem write and not a magic audit message?
A magic audit message requires CAP_AUDIT_WRITE, which we'd like to use
sparingly. Given that orchestrators will already require it to send
the mandatory AUDIT_VIRT_*, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden.
I was originally leaning towards an audit message trigger or a syscall.
> I don't like the fact that the proc filesystem entry is likely going to
> be readable and abusable by non-audit contexts?
This proposal wasn't going to start with that link being readable, but
its filesystem structure and link names would be, perhaps giving away
too much already.
I think we will need to find a way for the orchestrator or one of its
authorized agents to read this information while blocking reads from
unauthorized agents, otherwise this would be of very limited use.
Something that is set only for future audit messages seems reasonable.
Once you start reading this from something other than audit messages I
get neverous, that people will use this beyond audit for things it is
not intended for.
> Why the ability to change the containerid? What is the use case
you are
> thinking of there?
This was covered in the end of the conversation with Paul Moore (that
maybe you got tired reading?)
I have not had time to review everything. As I was busy preparing for my
wedding and am now in the middle of my honeymoon.
I'd originally proposed having it write
once, but Paul figured there was no good reason to restrict it and leave
that decision up to the orchestrator. The use case would be adding
other processes to a container, but it could be argued all additional
processes should be spawned by the first process in a container.
I see two cases here:
a) Nested containers
b) Inject processes via something like nsenter into a container.
In case a) you have to figure out what to do with nested containers
and that does seem to be a legitimate case for a double write. Arguably
with the restriction that you must specify a more nested label.
In case b) which you seem to be referring to it would be a process
created by the container manager outside the container that has no
container label. At which point there is not a need for a double write.
So my recommendation is to not support double writes until you support
nested containers.
Eric
11:15 p.m.
On 2017-09-18 21:45, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
> On 2017-09-14 12:33, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
>> Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com> writes:
>>
>> > The trigger is a pseudo filesystem (proc, since PID tree already exists)
>> > write of a u64 representing the container ID to a file representing a
>> > process that will become the first process in a new container.
>> > This might place restrictions on mount namespaces required to define a
>> > container, or at least careful checking of namespaces in the kernel to
>> > verify permissions of the orchestrator so it can't change its own
>> > container ID.
>>
>> Why a u64?
>
> u32 will roll too quickly. UUID is large enough that it adds
> significantly to audit record bandwidth. I'd prefer u64, but can look
> at the difference of accommodating a UUID...
I was imagining a string might be better. As for the purposes of audit
it is just a byte string you regurgitate.
Yes, so looking at u128 vs dhowells' proposal, it would be 16 bytes vs
24 bytes, which really isn't that much difference...
What length of string length were you envisioning?
>> Why a proc filesystem write and not a magic audit message?
>
> A magic audit message requires CAP_AUDIT_WRITE, which we'd like to use
> sparingly. Given that orchestrators will already require it to send
> the mandatory AUDIT_VIRT_*, this doesn't seem like an unreasonable burden.
>
> I was originally leaning towards an audit message trigger or a syscall.
>
>> I don't like the fact that the proc filesystem entry is likely going to
>> be readable and abusable by non-audit contexts?
>
> This proposal wasn't going to start with that link being readable, but
> its filesystem structure and link names would be, perhaps giving away
> too much already.
>
> I think we will need to find a way for the orchestrator or one of its
> authorized agents to read this information while blocking reads from
> unauthorized agents, otherwise this would be of very limited use.
Something that is set only for future audit messages seems reasonable.
Once you start reading this from something other than audit messages I
get neverous, that people will use this beyond audit for things it is
not intended for.
Understandably. At the same time, if we implement something that is
more broadly useful and solves a number of other challenges others are
facing, how can we make it available while limiting the potential for
abuse?
>> Why the ability to change the containerid? What is the use
case you are
>> thinking of there?
>
> This was covered in the end of the conversation with Paul Moore (that
> maybe you got tired reading?)
I have not had time to review everything. As I was busy preparing for my
wedding and am now in the middle of my honeymoon.
I'm very sorry, my bad! You had given me a heads up about this and I
appologise for causing a stir during your special time.
> I'd originally proposed having it write
> once, but Paul figured there was no good reason to restrict it and leave
> that decision up to the orchestrator. The use case would be adding
> other processes to a container, but it could be argued all additional
> processes should be spawned by the first process in a container.
I see two cases here:
a) Nested containers
b) Inject processes via something like nsenter into a container.
In case a) you have to figure out what to do with nested containers
and that does seem to be a legitimate case for a double write. Arguably
with the restriction that you must specify a more nested label.
Is this technically a double write if it is an inheritance? That should
be solvable with a flag.
In case b) which you seem to be referring to it would be a process
created by the container manager outside the container that has no
container label. At which point there is not a need for a double write.
Looking at the potential for nesting, if the orchestrator is already in
a container, then it would already have a label, but if we refer to the
flag solution above, then it is still the first write.
So my recommendation is to not support double writes until you
support
nested containers.
I think this is a reasonable restriction.
Thanks for your time. Sorry to disturb your holiday.
Eric
- RGB
--
Richard Guy Briggs <rgb(a)redhat.com>
Sr. S/W Engineer, Kernel Security, Base Operating Systems
Remote, Ottawa, Red Hat Canada
IRC: rgb, SunRaycer
Voice: +1.647.777.2635, Internal: (81) 32635
2893
days inactive
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7 comments
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participants (3)
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Carlos O'Donell -
Eric W. Biederman -
Richard Guy Briggs